Tarot Interviews

Pentacles, Process & Pokémon? Oh My! A Tarot-Fueled Talk with Kate Gray

• Finbarre Snarey | Tarot Interviews • Season 1 • Episode 6

Share episode

Kate Gray is a British games writer and journalist with over a decade of experience in the industry. Based in Canada, she specializes in dialogue writing, narrative procedural generation, and storytelling through design. Her notable works include serving as the Narrative Lead for Moonstone Island and Winding Worlds, as well as contributing to Goodbye Volcano High.

Kate's journalism has been featured in publications such as Rock Paper Shotgun, and The Guardian. She is also an experienced public speaker, video presenter, critic, and panelist .

Learn more and explore her work at: https://kategray.me

NEXT EPISODE: meet Sadriana Zea, chaotic-good Twitch entertainer and fearless captain of the Chaos Crew.

Tarot Interviews credits

If you're curious about the cards we use and want to find out more, visit our Tarot Interviews podcast page.

Disclaimer: The Tarot Interviews podcast is intended for entertainment purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not constitute professional, legal, financial, medical, or psychological advice. Listeners are encouraged to seek guidance from qualified professionals where appropriate.

Finbarre Snarey:

Tarot Interviews. Kate Gray is a writer with deep passion for storytelling, worldbuilding and interactive narratives. With a background in games journalism, she has written for major publications like Rock Paper Shotgun, Kotaku and the Guardian. Beyond journalism, Kate has brought stories to life through in-game writing for projects like the wonderfully wholesome creature-collecting game Moonstone Island. And here she is now Hi, hello.

Kate Gray:

How are you doing? Good, I just came back from the gym. I don't usually go to the gym this early in the morning, but yeah, it makes me sound very like like I have my shit together but I don't. I sort of signed up for this, being like I have no idea. I love tarot stuff, so I just wanted to sort of check it out. Yeah, I mean I I think the great thing about tarot is that people like to hear about themselves. You're turning over the cards, you're saying a fact about someone and they're like yeah, they're like 100 me exactly um.

Finbarre Snarey:

What decks have you got yourself lovely?

Kate Gray:

I have a. I don't know where they are right now, but I have a Major Arcana one that a friend of mine drew. Really it's got a lot of like themes in it, like snakes and hands are the sort of themes. It's all black and white and it's very beautiful, and I think themes in it like snakes and hands are the sort of themes. It's all black and white and it's very beautiful, and I think that's the only one I currently have, because I usually let other people read my tarot for me. I'm hoping that those have the Ikea one. I have the Ikea tarot.

Kate Gray:

Sorry, the ikea tarot what oh, you should check it out. It is usable, um because does it form into? A chair it's unofficial, I should say uh, but it is based on ikea products. Um, I can't remember any of them, but, like, every single one of the major arcana is like a ikea product, um, and I forget what these suits are, but I'm gonna say it's like lamps and chairs and things like that.

Finbarre Snarey:

Soft furnishings yeah.

Kate Gray:

Yeah, it's not a usable tarot. It's mostly a joke, but it's a good joke.

Finbarre Snarey:

Okay, so you've written for major publications like Rock Paper, shotgun, Kotaku, the Guardian. Are all of these right?

Kate Gray:

Yeah.

Finbarre Snarey:

Yeah, fab, beyond journalism, you've brought stories to life through in-game writing for projects like and I put the wonderfully wholesome creature collecting game Moonstone Island because I'm going to have to buy it after this interview. Oh thanks, it looks so sweet. I mean, my kids have played something that looked kind of familiar, like I think it's Cassette Beasts.

Kate Gray:

Yeah, it's the same publisher. We're friends with the Cassette Beast people as well. We have we have a crossover in the game with actually, wow, we did like a collab event.

Finbarre Snarey:

So, yeah, yeah, nailed it okay, uh, so on that topic, just kind of give me an idea of you. Uh, who is your favorite Pokemon of all time?

Kate Gray:

oh, I have um. Somewhere in this room I have art that says what my favorite ones are, and I can't put it um I'm pretty sure they're first gen, because I won't know who they are otherwise no, they're not. Oh sorry, the first gen are fine, but I feel like it's it's it's too obvious. Um, this, this painting back here that you absolutely cannot see because it is blurry, is of Snom, which is probably my current favorite Pokemon. It's a sort of is that the sleepy?

Kate Gray:

one. No, oh okay, I don't know what generation Snom is like seventh or something like that. He's quite a reason. One middle he's. No, I do like a lot of the weasel ones, though I think for. Uh, for it might be on my list. Wish I could remember where I'd put my list. It's a very useful reference document, but it's not here, evidently.

Finbarre Snarey:

So yeah, I love the fact that you have a list on hand of favorite Pokemon, just in case somebody asks that question.

Kate Gray:

Yeah, my partner made it for me because I have a list of like maybe 20, 15 to 20 favorites and he noticed that all of them were either round or soft.

Finbarre Snarey:

Okay, so the round one that's bristling with magnets isn't.

Kate Gray:

No, they have to be sort of a sweet round, like a Jigglypuff round, sort of looks like it's.

Finbarre Snarey:

Oh, you're one of those okay.

Kate Gray:

Absolutely yes, yeah, I mean, for me it's one of those. Okay, absolutely yes, yeah.

Finbarre Snarey:

I mean, for me it's Gengar. Gengar is simply the best and my kids will come to me and say he's not the best and I was like he'll be all of your Pokemon, just bring them on.

Kate Gray:

Yeah.

Finbarre Snarey:

The Pokemon of Hubris.

Kate Gray:

There probably is. Since first gen they've probably released a pokemon that is called the pokemon of hubris.

Finbarre Snarey:

At some point, like they'll be given an imaginative name like hubris or or something yeah, there is a Pokemon that is canonically god in the Pokemon universe, so I've got a question. So do you have, like Pokemon, bishops and rabbis, or?

Kate Gray:

There's a Pokemon called bishop, so I think he's chess themed. So yes, it got really weird. It's gone places since first gen, so it's.

Finbarre Snarey:

Yes, it's evolved in many ways. Okay, all right, let me have a quick look and let me get card. So the way this works is I'll give these a little shuffle and whenever you feel like you'd like me to stop, just say stop and I'll cut the deck Right. Let me place the card down, and when I do, I'd like you to say what the card is and just describe it a little. Okay, okay.

Kate Gray:

The Page of Pentacles. Uh, we've got a guy wearing a very silly red hat. Um, he's sort of standing on one leg in a beautiful meadow and holding a big old coin in his hand have you ever seen this card before? I don't usually get pentacles, so no, okay so page pentacles.

Finbarre Snarey:

You've got the youthful, eager energy of learning, growth, new opportunities, and obviously it's a card of materialism, so it's normally in the material or practical realms. So it's a new opportunity, often things like a new job. Hmm, that's what it would be if I was telling your future. But I'm here to ask you a question. So question I'm going to ask you is what's a skill you're looking forward to developing?

Kate Gray:

This is, I think, uh, quite a soft skill which I think are more important than people give them credit for. But I'm looking forward to developing, being able to work with my partner. We're both game developers of different sort of trades. Uh, he's much more on the programming, building things, and I'm much more on like the sort of more creative writing side of things, and we want to make things together because together we have all the skills you need to to make a game in various amounts.

Kate Gray:

But usually I work with a team where there is a hierarchy and when you work with your partner, that sort of doesn't slash, can't exist in the same way. You sort of have to go back and forth in the same way that you do in a relationship, where one day one of you will be giving 80% and the other is 20%, and then maybe it's 50-50 and then maybe it switches to the other way and it's difficult. It is very difficult to sort of bring the workplace into a relationship and I'm sure it's ruined a lot of relationships. So that's what I would like to develop this year.

Finbarre Snarey:

Okay, so, following on from that, are there any games that you've played recently that you wish you had developed yourself, because you feel that you could have done them better?

Kate Gray:

All of them oh no, not that I could have done them better, I'm just like lately I've been playing a lot of games from like oh my god, this idea was just out there and I I could have grabbed it. Um, I think everybody feels that way sometimes about creative products, like especially when you're looking at, like, let's say, modern art. People look at it and they go I could have done that. It's like, yeah, but you didn't, you didn't, anyone could have, but but only one person did. But in terms of games, like, I could have done that better. Not because I think the people did it badly. I think they did the best that they could under extremely difficult circumstances very diplomatic answer.

Kate Gray:

I like it you have to be, but, uh, I know so many people in the industry. Um, I think a lot of people playing dragon age veil guard looked at it and were just like this seems like such a missed opportunity with such an incredible um team of people and and such a great as much as I hate saying the phrase ip what, what a great intellectual property this is, and it it could have been it. It had some great moments and I really think that the writers and the rest of the team did what they could, but it just feels like it was. It was a too many cooks situation. Sometimes it feels like it was a management changing their mind about things and making everyone's lives and jobs really difficult, and it just feels like man, this, this could have been amazing and instead I I think it was only able to half accomplish a lot of its ideas, um, and it's sad to play a game like that where it has so much wasted potential.

Finbarre Snarey:

Okay, I mean, I haven't played that game myself. I've played Dragon Age Origins, which I loved, and I was curious about, when Baldur's Gate 3 came out, how Larian Studios will have disrupted other studios where suddenly the bar has been raised so high. I quite like the game. The bar has been raised so high that you're thinking where do people go next with it, with this genre?

Kate Gray:

Yes, well, I think the problem is that a lot of the higher ups, the sort of marketing and ceo types that maybe don't understand the games industry very well, are looking at boulders gate 3 and drawing the wrong conclusions. They're going boulders gate 3 is multiplayer and that's why it succeeded. No, no, it's absolutely the writing that that drives that game. It is the writers, having been given, like, a, a lot of freedom and b, a lot of like specific opposite of freedom, because they have to work within, uh, the sort of DnD structure. Um, but writers, like, rule that company pretty much. So, um, yeah, I I wish that that more studios were taking that as the lesson to learn, not like just the wrong, the wrong lessons.

Finbarre Snarey:

There's a lot of that okay, right, I think it's time for your next card. Again, I've been shuffling, so just tell me when to split the day.

Kate Gray:

We have the Six of Pentacles. I never get pentacles. This is crazy. We have six big old floating coins in the sky with pentacles on them, and then we have three figures. Two of them appear to be sort of on the ground covered in thick blankets and begging, and then, in the middle, holding a pair of scales, is a wealthier looking man in a very nice cape with another silly hat, distributing much smaller coins to the beggars how many silly hats do you earn?

Finbarre Snarey:

I'm sorry that's not my actual question, but uh, take it as a bonus I have one of those sort of like a pillar box hats.

Kate Gray:

I think that's fluffy and whenever I wear it I look like like a russian oligarch from the 1920s. It's pretty cool I mean.

Finbarre Snarey:

To me it sounds more like a raver from the 1990s.

Kate Gray:

Oh, okay, I mean yeah, it's versatile. Many looks one hat.

Finbarre Snarey:

So Six of Pentacles, a card of generosity. Balance giving of resources represents a flow of wealth, knowledge, assistance, emphasizing the importance of fairness. It's when you're in a position to help others. Okay, so six of pentacles. What I'm going to ask, how do you give back to the gaming community?

Kate Gray:

Oh, to the gaming community. Um, I was gonna say this year that I've gone real hard on charity, like actual, actual charity, but in terms of giving back to the community, um, it's difficult because I think you, the best way to give back is is knowledge. You, you end up with all this institutional knowledge that um just isn't there, that isn't very accessible to newcomers because a lot of it is locked away, uh, behind, like you have to pay for this conference or you have to, like sign up to this service where talks are stored, and so I don't do a lot of talks anymore because most of them aren't paid and I'm tired. But I sort of I like to post, I like to talk to people. Um, if people ask me for advice, I like to try and give it.

Kate Gray:

I got a lot more people asking for advice when I was more prominent in journalism. They'd be like, how do I get into games, journalism? And I had to stop myself from being like, oh god, why, no, don't what do you? There aren't any jobs and in a year there will be even fewer because they keep firing everybody.

Finbarre Snarey:

is that due to the encroachment of AI into journalism?

Kate Gray:

Part of it is. Part of it is just that people don't really value games journalism. They see it as kind of this sort of like frivolous, hobbyist thing that we don't need and that is like very patently untrue. Like the, tech journalism has been some of the best journalism about politics. Right now, a lot of other journalism outlets are just sort of like looking the other way and being like oh, who knows what's happening, and tech journalists are like what are you talking about? This is what's happening, which is crazy. You know people think that we're just like video games toys, but actually, for some strange reason, gaming is doing a lot of the work.

Finbarre Snarey:

I'm not, but other people are, and that's great Things, like Rock Paper Shotgun where I've discovered more about, say, nfts or more than I do still or the blockchain or something like that.

Kate Gray:

And all I wanted to know is more about the next version of Pac-Man. Yeah, you go in there being like yay toys, and then they're like no, it's time to learn In a good way.

Finbarre Snarey:

It's a good thing, okay, right Third card. So it's been pentacles and pentacles, what you're feeling for the next car? What do you think is going to come along?

Kate Gray:

I'm kind of hoping for some major arcana. I usually get a lot and they're like friends, you know, fun friends with nice pictures.

Finbarre Snarey:

Fun friends with nice pictures, like Temperance.

Kate Gray:

Everyone loves Temperance. I always like to see The Star. That's my favorite card.

Finbarre Snarey:

I did have a Moon necklace, one that just had the moon on a small silver pendant, which I lost. So I got myself online and I thought I need to replace this, and I realized that buying the entire major arcana in necklace form was about a tenner more than the necklace I was looking at. So I did so. I now pull them out like cards and wear them, and the star tends to feature most.

Kate Gray:

I feel um saying that The Star is my favorite card is is kind of like on the playground when someone would say that they wanted to be a unicorn who was also a princess.

Finbarre Snarey:

You know, like I'm the specialist uh it'd be an alicorn, surely, I mean, you want the wings too, right?

Kate Gray:

you've watched a lot of my little pony, have you?

Finbarre Snarey:

yes, my son loves it oh it's great.

Kate Gray:

Um, okay, am I supposed to tell you to stop shuffling? I'm shuffling away just when how you fancy it let's stop, okay, right, well, uh, we have the knight of pentacles. He is. He's on a big, beefy looking black horse with a red harness and like a butt harness. I don't think that's normal for horses. The knight has a lot of metal armor on but harness is normal for something.

Kate Gray:

No, sorry, I won't ask that question, please continue he's got one of those helmets with like feathers coming out the back and he's once again holding a big old coin and there's like a river of blood in the background.

Finbarre Snarey:

I think that's meant to be mountains, but it's red, so yeah okay, so knight of pentacles classically represents hard work, dedication, a methodical approach and in achieving long-term successes, and it normally represents a disciplined approach when needed. How do you maintain discipline in your creative work?

Kate Gray:

Oh, my god, I don't. Is the problem? Um, when, when I was growing up, I was usually the smartest kid in my class, just naturally and I think a lot of people can probably relate to this when you're like a gifted child, you're like, oh, then I don't have to try, I found a loophole, and then you never learn to try, so that's great. I think a lot of people that I know sort of grew up being like smart and finding things really easy in school and then stepping out into the real world and being like, oh no, this hasn't prepared me at all. Like exams, not that useful. Being good at exams hasn't come up in my daily life. I wish it did, because it's a skill that I have that I'm just never going to use again unless I go back to school, which I'm not going to do.

Kate Gray:

So having to sort of find and build discipline in my daily life has been is very difficult. I have coping techniques. For example, I've been going to the gym and I know that I have to do personal training because I have to have a person there who knows I'm supposed to be there and is going to yell at me if I don't work hard enough. So if I just like oh, I'm going to the gym, I'm not, I'm not going to go to the gym, I have to have a person there and that is frustrating because it's much more expensive. But it keeps me accountable and my Google Calendar is kind of like a version of that, where if something's in my Google Calendar I'll do it. So I use that to sort of force myself to do things. But it's not quite the same as discipline. It is external discipline. I'm still working on finding internal discipline, you know.

Finbarre Snarey:

Okay, it's funny you should mention the thing about your school friends going out into the real world. I mean it's funny, you should mention the um, the thing about your school friends going out into the real world. I mean it's a cliche, but many of my school friends who've gone out into the real world, who were gifted, realized that somewhere along the line a diagnosis was missed and it probably is adhd yeah, I was gonna mention that I've I've not been diagnosed because I'm on a very long waiting list, but like we all know, we all know um.

Finbarre Snarey:

Do you have any particular passions or focuses at the moment that you're going all in on?

Kate Gray:

I mean I really like my job. I'm lucky that I'm I'm doing contract work, so I'm working three different jobs right now. Uh, so my time is sorry. Three different jobs, yeah, but they're all part-time. Uh, I write for three different games that they each take up about 10 hours a week. Uh, so it works out at a pretty chill week actually, um, a lot of that is meetings anyway, or like playing the game that I'm writing just to check things and everything like that. Um, and I get all my work done, which maybe looks like discipline.

Kate Gray:

I forgot what the question was. What do I like to do? Okay, um, uh, passions. I've been doing a lot of game playing. Sometimes it's bad if your hobby is the same as your job, but I play very different games to the ones I write, so it kind of works out okay.

Kate Gray:

And what else have I been doing? I mean, I like to sew, but I haven't sat at the sewing machine in like three months. I'm making a quilt. I've been making a quilt for like three years. It'll never be finished. And I've also been trying to get back into art. I'm not an artist but I do like to draw and for the game, me and my partner are extremely slowly making. I've been trying to do the character art and I feel like there's a bunch of things about character art that I just don't know. Like, oh, you're supposed to use a color palette, you're supposed to keep it this many pixels? I don't know any of that. Keep it this many pixels. I don't know any of that and I'm trying to let myself not have to just sort of draw something that I think is cute and that's been surprisingly fun and freeing, I guess.

Finbarre Snarey:

I find it interesting that you say that you're not an artist and yet you've just led me through this, this thinking that you have this time, that you spend the kind of aspirations that yeah, I mean, this sounds pretty much like an artist at work no one's paid me for it.

Kate Gray:

No, that's, I have been paid for my art before, but I think you've been paid as well. Yes, I don't know what is an artist nobody knows. It's you that? That's what it is. Fine, I'll take it right.

Finbarre Snarey:

So what are you doing for the rest of your day?

Kate Gray:

uh well, I'm going to Japan on monday, so I'm going to be packing going to Japan.

Finbarre Snarey:

Whereabouts?

Kate Gray:

All over. Well, not like actually all over. We're going to tokyo, kyoto, osaka, nara, hakone and another place I can never remember the name of. It's just like a small town. I think we're doing like onsens and looking at mountains kinosaki, that's it, kinosaki.

Finbarre Snarey:

I don't know anything about it I, I know even less than you do, but there's um, there's a few um, islands, uh, off Japan, these kind of these, um sort of primeval forests that you get yeah, yeah and I would love, love to go walking through those. I mean, obviously in autumn that would be nice, but at any point, because they're just. Everything is just encased in moss and it looks like something from another world. I would love to go.

Kate Gray:

Oh, my partner loves moss Big moss fan. I'm also a fan of moss, so like, and old forests. You know I grew up in sort of near the Peak District, lots of forests.

Finbarre Snarey:

Sorry, the Peak District In.

Kate Gray:

England. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm British. I don't know if I said that.

Finbarre Snarey:

You didn't and you don't still sound it. You don't sound like you're from Derbyshire. Put it that way.

Kate Gray:

No, Well, I'm from Leicestershire. That'd be why I don't have a regional accent at all, and also being in Canada for seven years has softened it even more. So people are usually like you're from somewhere, but I don't know where it is. And I'm like Leicester, Like I don't know what that is either.

Finbarre Snarey:

We've got dead kings in car parks.

Kate Gray:

That is like, yeah, that's the only thing we have is one guy died once and it was fine, I guess. Yeah, it's not a very interesting part of the country turns out.

Finbarre Snarey:

Yeah, I must say I've driven through it many times. I've never really stopped.

Kate Gray:

The next time I'll look out the window and think Kate's from here. Yeah, my hometown made Bell's bells whiskey. No, like big bells that go bong. Oh okay, yeah, there was like a bell foundry. I think there still is a bell foundry. Um, there can't be a lot of work in that, but it still exists I mean it's funny.

Finbarre Snarey:

You should say that there's. There's a town not too far away from here called Hina, where I've just discovered just yesterday, they create 98% of the country's Christmas puddings. They all come from this one place. It's one of those things you don't stop and think where do bells come from? They go from near your old place.

Kate Gray:

Yeah, and you can't just start up a bell foundry now like you have to have a bunch of molds, steel, I don't know I don't know, maybe the craftspeople as well, you know yeah, yeah, it's probably really difficult to get into. And, uh, lady jane gray came from the place I I grew up in as well. She was one of the queens.

Kate Gray:

Okay, for nine days she was I mean she sounds like she's from the x-men academy, but she does yeah, and she didn't have any cool powers, hence why she only was queen for nine days and then got her head cut off.

Finbarre Snarey:

So oh, um on that subject. But before you go um, out of all of the x-men, whose powers did you want the most?

Kate Gray:

Oh, some of them don't seem good yeah right, like laser eyes. Not that useful um touching people, killing them, not that useful, uh I don't know. It depends on the person yeah, but you can't touch anyone um you could boop someone on the nose.

Finbarre Snarey:

It'd be death boop, wouldn't it? I I mean.

Kate Gray:

I could. I mean, is it cheating to say that I wanted the white stripe that Rogue has in her hair? Does that count as a power?

Finbarre Snarey:

It counts as a power because it does look formidable.

Kate Gray:

Yeah, okay, that's my answer. Excellent Cool hair.

Finbarre Snarey:

Thank you so much for joining us tonight.

Kate Gray:

Thank you. This is really fun. I can't believe I got all pentacles. Hopefully that means I'm going to be rich this year. I don't know.

Finbarre Snarey:

As we turn the final card on today's conversation with Kate Gray, we're left with a deeper appreciation for the way stories shape our lives, whether in games, writing or even tarot itself. The cards invite us to explore possibilities, embrace intuition and uncover meaning in unexpected places. If Kate's insights resonated with you, be sure to follow her work link in the show notes and see where her storytelling magic leads next. Until then, we'll meet in the next episode of Tarot Interviews.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Fin

Host
Head Shot

Nik

Producer
Head Shot

Ada

Editor