Tarot Interviews

Uncanny Englishness: Kit Whitfield on Folklore and Fantasy

• Finbarre Snarey | Tarot Interviews • Season 1 • Episode 16

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Kit Whitfield is an English novelist and essayist based in London. Her debut novel, published in 2006 as Bareback (UK) and Benighted (US), was shortlisted for the Authors’ Club Best First Novel Award, longlisted for the Waverton Good Read Award, and optioned by Warner Bros.

Kit is the author of the Gyrford duology - In the Heart of Hidden Things (2022) and its sequel All the Hollow of the Sky (2023) - both longlisted for the BSFA . These novels are set in a fictional pre‑industrial English village and centre on a family of fairy‑smiths who forge iron to repel spirits.

Beyond fiction, she has written a series of critical essays titled What’s on Shudder?/Essays on Horror for Ginger Nuts of Horror. 

In her earlier career, Kit trained as a chef and a masseur, and worked in various roles including website editor, quote‑hunter, toy‑shop assistant, and publisher. 

Discover more at https://kitwhitfield.blogspot.com/ and https://gnofhorror.com/whats-on-shudder/

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Disclaimer: The Tarot Interviews podcast is intended for entertainment purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not constitute professional, legal, financial, medical, or psychological advice. Listeners are encouraged to seek guidance from qualified professionals where appropriate.

Finbarre Snarey:

Tarot Interviews Today. In Tarot Interviews with Fin this week, we welcome a writer whose work reshapes the boundaries of fantasy, folklore and the human condition. Kit Whitfield is the acclaimed author of Bareback, published in the US as Benighted, a novel that reimagines the werewolf myth through the lens of institutional power and marginalisation. A second novel, in Great Waters, an audacious alternate history of merfolk and monarchy, earned a shortlist nomination for the World Fantasy Award. More recently, kit has enchanted readers with the Guyford series, beginning with the In in the heart of hidden things and continuing with in all of the hollow of the sky, weaving tales of changelings, kindness and uncanny Englishness, with a folkloric warmth that's rare in modern fantasy. Kit's pulling three cards from the deck today. Let's find out what they are. Welcome to Tarot Interviews. Kit Whitfield, what kind of a day are you having today?

Kit Whitfield:

I'm good, thank you. I'm really interested in how this is going to go, because this is my first tarot reading. I've always been interested and I think it's going to be a lot of fun, but you may have to expect some stupid questions from me.

Finbarre Snarey:

I'm here to guide you through it and I'm just grateful that you saw a strange man on I think it was Bluesky, who has a podcast about tarot cards who said, do you want to be on the show? And you're like, yeah, why not, let's do this like yeah, that sounds like so much fun well, bless you.

Finbarre Snarey:

The deck of cards is in my hand right now. We're using the Rider Waite Smith today, as always, and before I start pulling cards out one by one, we may get major, we may get minor arcana, and I'll guide you through what all of those mean. Are there any particular cards that you have had more of an interest in than others? Have you seen anything in popular culture and gone? What does that mean? I'm curious.

Kit Whitfield:

I know that death is supposed to be a good card, but beyond that I'm curious and I'm going to admit now that I don't know what any of the suits mean okay, again, happy to guide you through all of this, in fact, if it helps illustrate the cards a little better.

Finbarre Snarey:

Of course you'll be able to see the pictures themselves, but we recently, at tarot interviews, made a series of playlists for each and every card major arcana, minor arcana and married that to a particular song that we quite like. We are rather biased in those song choices, so if there's a particular card that we pull out that you're not sure about, I'd be able to tell you oh, I don't know the two of swords that is represented by, under Pressure, by Queen and David Bowie. And then immediately I get the vibe Okay, so the cards are in my hand Now. They have been riffle shuffled 10 times to completely randomize them no chicanery, no nonsense, and I'd like you to tell me when to stop.

Kit Whitfield:

Oh, he looks fun.

Finbarre Snarey:

And you have there the Page of Cups Out of interest, the Page of Cups. This may be the first time you've seen this.

Kit Whitfield:

It is actually Okay.

Finbarre Snarey:

What vibes do you get immediately? What do the colours say? What does the pose represent to you?

Kit Whitfield:

Intuitively I would say playful, Okay Is this wildly wrong.

Finbarre Snarey:

No, no, no. I mean. The Page of Cups often represents hope, inspiration, possibly immaturity. This is a card that you want.

Kit Whitfield:

Well, I'm in the middle of starting a new book, so inspiration is absolutely a good sign for me.

Finbarre Snarey:

And cups are always the suit of the heart. Of course you'd see that in a deck of playing cards represented by the hearts themselves, but the Page of Cups, it brings tender-hearted, imaginative energy. It's often the arrival of an unexpected message, creative opportunity, an emotional opening, that type of thing.

Finbarre Snarey:

Well creative opportunity sounds brilliant. I've got to say I don't know if you're familiar with the artist Dodie, if you've heard any of Dodie's music at all. In the playlist that we have, the Cups playlist, which is at tarotinterviewscom forward slash cups. This card is represented by the song Human by Dodie. If you haven't heard it, it is a wonderful, heartfelt, quite delicate song, but that kind of gives you an idea of what this card is about so I will be listening to it shortly right, let me think of a question I should also warn you, I'm really ignorant about music, so, um not.

Finbarre Snarey:

So I may be doing some looking up after this of course, if you check out the playlist and there's one for the major arcana, one for all of the suits, might give you a slightly better understanding. But uh, it's, it's, it's very good track. I'm biased because I like all of those songs anyway. Page of cups. Okay, what is a surprising idea that's recently caught your curiosity that you've come up with?

Kit Whitfield:

Recently I have been looking into I'm I'm starting a new writing project and I'm playing around with the idea of spiritualism, so I've just uh, finished reading an enormous long book at the subject. So yeah, that's most of the books that I've written. Certainly the books I wrote most recently, which is the Guyford series, are set in, I would say like once upon a time. But my rule of thumb there is that I don't use any language that you couldn't find in Shakespeare, at least in the dialogue.

Kit Whitfield:

I mean, people don't say the and thou, but I'm a big etymology nerd, so I'm always like looking up I think this word is not too modern, but I'm gonna check Smiths, who live in a village where it follows a family of talisman creators, come social workers who have to support the folks when they are plagued by the people, which is to say humans, when they're bothered by fae spirits such as, for example, fighting bramble bushes, a pig that thinks it's the Garwain poet, giant spider that feels extremely sorry for itself, a fiery black dog that eats landlords who he is a fan favorite I can't imagine why. And um, I've got a book, um on submission right now, which I I feel I will jinx if I describe, but that is also set like several centuries ago. So for me, looking into something that's still historical but a bit more modern has been a recent creative idea.

Finbarre Snarey:

So when you say spiritualism, are we talking like the kind of 1920s style spiritualism, or is the influence 1860s is what. I'm looking at Okay, Not an area I'm familiar with but what gave you this idea?

Kit Whitfield:

I honestly can't tell you I I'm a writer who goes very much by prompts for the most part, like last year, um, I and a friend, charlotte bond, who's lovely fantasy writer, you should definitely check her out as well we did this game where another writer, stephanie burgess, and her, released a one-word prompt for drawing every day of Halloween. So we decided you know what we're going to do. We're going to write a short story every day for a month according to these prompts, which were things like toothy or moon or bad hair day or whatever. So I'm someone who writes very much in response to.

Kit Whitfield:

There are some writers who have a million ideas lined up in their head ready to go. I envy them, but I am somebody who, if you toss me a ball, I will run with it, but I kind of need the initial prompt. So spiritualism. The truth is, I've just been like reading books of folklore, reading books of history, and I think I just tripped over this idea and thought, well, I'm going to see what I can come up with. And I'm in the stage at the moment, very much where I'm I call it making mud pies. I'm just slapping my dears together and seeing what happens.

Finbarre Snarey:

When I was a teenager, I was a big Kate Bush fan. The story is going somewhere. When I was a teenager, I was a big Kate Bush fan. The story is going somewhere. She released an album called the Dreaming, which, on the cover of the Dreaming, is a picture of Kate Bush about to kiss a man who represents Houdini and she's passing a key to Houdini with her mouth. That's pretty cool. Because of this cover, I then went on to be quite interested in Houdini and what he did, and he spent a good part of his time outside of doing magic tricks trying to debunk people like spiritualists, and I seem to remember he was kind of the James Randi of his era, Exactly exactly, and I seem to remember the quote it takes a flim flammer to know.

Finbarre Snarey:

A flim flammer really brought his work to me, flim Flammer to Noah, flim Flammer really brought his work to me. But that's the only side of spiritualism I've seen has been the basically the kind of the charlatanism of it. But have you been looking into more of the more spiritual part of that?

Kit Whitfield:

What I would say from what I've gathered and again I do not know what at this point would get into a book. I'd be writing, because the only way I write books is I write rubbish until I trip over something good, and I'm in the writing rubbish stage. But, that said, the read I get is that it was a religion like many other religions. It was not unlike, I would say, wicca today, which is to say, among other things, very much a religion that women could hold a spiritually authoritative role in, which was not the case in most religions. And I think that there was a spectrum between just straight up hoaxers who were doing stage magic, true believers. At the opposite end of the spectrum and in the middle, I think you've got people who did believe in what they were doing but felt that, you know, just to help the spirits along a bit or to keep the audience interested in the real stuff, it's not really cheating if I just like regurgitate a bit of muslin and call it ectoplasm, right? So I think even in true believers there was a certain amount of stage magic some of the time. But then there was also things like automatic writing, which the people doing it genuinely believed in. And yeah, so there was.

Kit Whitfield:

There was, I'd say, quite a wide range of how people believed what they themselves were saying and how much their audiences believed it. Their audiences would range from true believers to people who were just kind of going because it seemed like a fun night out. To you know, if it was a public performance, because middle class and upper class spiritualists would have private sittings where the audiences would be known and part of their social circle and well behaved Working class ones who had to do it for a living could not vet their audience. So you could get, you know, drunks heckling you. You could get what were called spirit grabbers, people who would try to like, tackle the manifested spirit to see if it was actually just the medium in a costume.

Finbarre Snarey:

It could be quite rowdy if you had public performances you've just got me thinking as well that the, as far as I'm aware, a lot of the spiritualism when it's been its most popular tends to be after a disaster or war. So the people attending these spiritualist events, it's almost like a form of therapy before we called it therapy. It's a way of letting yes, or a way of releasing that so I can see the use there.

Kit Whitfield:

I'd be fascinated to read more. My grandfather invaded the session, described as an irascible old gentleman that she didn't like very much, who opined that modern mathematics had it all very wrong and string theory was where it was at. And I mean it may have been cold reading, because I think many people know an irascible old gentleman and certainly when she heard that she said oh oh, that's Cormac. That's definitely Cormac. That's the most irascible old gentleman. But who knows Certainly if anybody deceased I ever knew was the sort to interrupt a spiritualist session, it would have been my grandfather. He did like attention.

Finbarre Snarey:

Okay, well, that's your first card, so that's one of the minor arcana that we've just placed down. We've got two more cards to go Stupid, so that's one of the minor arcana that we've just placed down.

Kit Whitfield:

We've got two more cards to go. Stupid question what's the difference between the major and the minor arcana?

Finbarre Snarey:

The easy way of saying that is, the major arcana are the famous ones. The minor arcana are the ones that look a bit like playing cards. I mean, of course, the minor arcana are separated into the suits that you mentioned. Each one of those, depending on your interpretation, can represent different elements, can represent different kind of parts of the human experience, with the major arcana being spirit, for example. So you might attribute I don't know very kind of basic things, like you might say. The ones which are represented by fire are the cards of inspiration. The cups which represent water are the cards of deep emotions. You could take those kind of readings from them, but it's all part of the toolkit. So the minor arcana are the ones that, to be honest, are the ones I check first when I buy a new deck, because, well, you get most often for a start because there's only 22 major arcana cards in a 78 card deck.

Kit Whitfield:

So I like the artwork on the minor arcana to be good and often people kind of just sort of it's the area where people scamp, because let me guess they will not be the cards that are shown on the marketing material, right, Exactly.

Finbarre Snarey:

The ones that are going to be shown are the magician, the fool, you know, the famous ones, rarely things like the hanged man, which is one of my favourite cards, or death, as you say, for obvious reasons. That's the difference between the two there. But after that let's go. Now, one of them really wanted to say hello. Let's place that one back. It's trying to announce itself there. Okay, right, so say stop whenever you're ready.

Kit Whitfield:

Queen of Swords.

Finbarre Snarey:

Another minor arcana there. Okay, what does the Queen of Swords say to you?

Kit Whitfield:

I was talking about Boudicca this morning. That's what comes to my mind right now.

Finbarre Snarey:

What were you saying about Boudicca?

Kit Whitfield:

Bit of crip humour. I walk with a rollator. That's like a seat that you wheel along because a few years ago I decided I was going to get so fit and I injured my back. So now I walk with a rollator and I was joking about putting knives on the wheels and rolling along like Boudicca, because when you use a mobility aid you make a lot of jokes about it. It's how you get through the day and in fact I have blinged up my rollator. It's got like a knitted log with leaves and a slug across the bar.

Kit Whitfield:

It's got crocheted toadstool caps for its cogs. It's got a velvet seat. When I'm meeting new people I say you can find me by I'm the one with the Goblin Corps rollator. So this morning I was thinking I might Boudica up my rollator. So history and empowerment and laughing at yourself would be the moods I had about that.

Finbarre Snarey:

The Queen of Swords is a card of clear perception, of intellect, of independence, of taking no nonsense, suffering no fools. It represents razor sharp clarity, speaking the truth even if people don't want to hear that truth. It's a card of mature wisdom. Going back to my songs that I was mentioning before, this one is represented by Paris Paloma's Labour in our playlist, and if you haven't heard that one, you really really do. It is an incredible one. I saw Paris Paloma in the rescue rooms in. Not, you haven't heard that one, you really really do. It is an incredible one. I saw Paris Paloma in the rescue rooms in Nottingham in the last year and it was one of the best gigs that I've been to for a long time. It was incredible. Yes, it's a song that takes one hefty swipe at patriarchy, queen of Swords. So the question for you about this one is how do you use clarity and critique in your editing process?

Kit Whitfield:

Well, I would say that the editing process for me is two things. There is and I think I can see both of them in the light of the Queen of Swords vibe. On the one hand, I feel like I need to listen to my own ear, and I'm a writer who I'm physically very clumsy, but whenever I talk about editing, suddenly my language gets very physical. I talk about rhythm, I talk about balance, I talk about beat. I am a terrible dancer, but I talk about writing like I talk about choreography, I think, having a clear sense of the pulse of a sentence, which probably I'm the only one who gets that worked up about, but that's something that I need to hear clearly. On the other hand, when you're being edited, you need to be a grown-up about it, which means somebody may criticize something and you go, ah no, but then you go no, hang on a second, hang on a second.

Kit Whitfield:

You know be aggrieved about this, and the rule I have for myself is if somebody misinterpreted a sentence I wrote, they may be taking away the wrong message from it, but that's on me for writing a sentence that was not impossible to misinterpret. I will go back and I'll change it, and usually my editors have had to be quite patient because I am very particular in editing. But my rule of thumb with myself is if somebody wants a sentence changed, I will change it, but I want to be the one who changes it myself because I want to bring it back into a state of balance. So if you take out a two-syllable word and replace it with a one-syllable word, I'll be like, okay, we can take that word out, but I'm choosing a different synonym.

Finbarre Snarey:

Is that because somebody's introduced discord into your symphony?

Kit Whitfield:

Essentially, yes, it feels wrong. It doesn't balance right in my hand, Like I I'm going to call it a throwing knife, since we're talking swords, that you know. If the throwing knife does not balance right in my hand, I cannot make it hit the target. So, yes, I think it's a question of maturity and grace, in that you have to be polite to anybody who's editing you, and I have edited myself. It is a difficult job. I have a tremendous respect for editors and so, yeah, it's a question of balancing being not a complete pain in the neck to work with and at the same time, but I want to make sure that we're both happy with it.

Finbarre Snarey:

That makes a lot of sense. This is not a process that I've ever been through. Most of my scribblings just only get to the notepad and I say notepad generously. They tend to get onto the back of a bus ticket, onto a beer mat. Spontaneous inspiration yeah, I find almost any surface other than your regular blank page to be the perfect medium, but it never goes beyond that. So the idea of somebody looking at something, refining it, taking it down to its best possible parts to me that is true magic.

Kit Whitfield:

I'll tell you, it's an absolute rule of thumb Never give a writer a beautiful notebook. An artist who draws, yeah, they'll use it. A writer will get blocked because they will just feel the pressure of living up to this notebook. Every good result I've had using a notebook has been from a really tatty, cheap, bashed up one. You know, the tattier they are, the more sorry I am when they get filled up because the more I just feel oh, that was just such an unthreatening notebook. Often these days, my notes, I will just email myself something off a device, not least because I have terrible, terrible handwriting. I, you know, I am a writer in the sense that I use language, in the sense of a fine penman's hand that I lack.

Finbarre Snarey:

I can imagine you with one of those jewelers, spy glasses peering at this arcane script which you jotted down an hour before pretty much.

Kit Whitfield:

Yes, I you know give me a moment to forget and I can't always read my own handwriting that I'm a pretty good typist. That will have to suffice right card number three.

Finbarre Snarey:

Hey, I will shuffle in the position. Keep shuffling, yep, and wait for that universe to boop you.

Kit Whitfield:

Stop.

Finbarre Snarey:

Huh, the Knight of Pentacles. Oh scary, it's one that doesn't get enough praise, I think. Now again, what are your vibes from this? From the colour, from what's going on in the picture? What is it Soti?

Kit Whitfield:

Oh, I'm getting a very Arthurian vibe because I'm a fan of the poem Garwain and the Green Knight. That's what I think of when I see a five-pointed star inside of a circle, but there's something a little doom-laden about the extremely yellow sky. He's against.

Finbarre Snarey:

Can you just remind me about the story of was it, gawain and the Green Knight Very quickly. What happens in that story?

Kit Whitfield:

Oh well, it's Christmas at King Arthur's Court. There is festivity, there is feasting, there is joking, there is partying. And just as everybody is really into it, into the hall rides a gigantic man wreathed in holly on a massive steed that, like himself, is green down to the last pore, and he says to Arthur, I have a Christmas New Year game for you to play. It's a challenge. I will kneel and you, or one of your knights, whoever feels brave enough, can take one stroke against me. I will not resist. And then, a year from now, I ask that whoever did that to me comes to me and I will give him back whatever he gave to me.

Kit Whitfield:

Everybody is a little nervous about this, because this is a green, enormous, gigantic, unsettling, clearly uncanny man in their midst and there's got to be a catch here. Somehow, the Green Knight jeers at their cowardice and Arthur leaps up and says well, fine, then I will. But at this point Sir Garwain, who is known as the most courteous and tactful of all the knights, stands up and says no, no, my lord uncle, this is completely beneath you, I'm rubbish. He is not rubbish, he's the best knight in the court. But he says you know what? Everybody knows that I'm only here because I'm your nephew, I'm expendable, knows that I'm only here because I'm your nephew, I'm expendable.

Kit Whitfield:

My lord, let me do this. So he goes up and he takes a swing at the green knight and he knocks his head clear from his shoulders and it rolls across the floor. The green knight stands up, picks it up, tucks it under his arm and the head says to him I will see you in a year then. And he rides out and thus the tale begins. Garwain has a pentacle in his shield which is a five-pointed star, which is all about how he is devoted to the many five-fold Christian virtues. But towards the end of the story he reveals himself not quite such a perfect knight as he aspired to be.

Finbarre Snarey:

A couple of things. First of all, I loved your green knight voice. Thanks. You had to come from nowhere In my imagination as you were describing that story. For some reason, gawain in my head looks just like Mark Owen from Take that. He's got that kind of pretty boy vibe, yeah.

Kit Whitfield:

He's certainly considered a heartthrob. He gets into trouble later because he is staying at the manor of a generous knight called Ser Bersilak and the lady of the manor thinks that he's quite the fine fellow, garwain. And while Garwain is resting, while her husband's off hunting, she spends three days making some very, very serious attempts to get into that armor, very serious attempts to get into that armor. And uh, garwain does not wish to cuckold his host, especially since at this point in the tale, another agreement has been made. His host has said to him you know what, mate, you rest up in bed and I'm gonna go hunting and at the end of the day we will swap whatever we gained during the day. So so, whatever Garwain gets from this lady, according to his oath he is going to have to hand over to her husband at the end of the day. So for more than one reason he feels he's got to say no. But she is very determined and turning her down politely becomes very discreet battle of its own kind.

Finbarre Snarey:

Let's see. I thought that story was going to end with a and why not both ending? Maybe that's the fanfic.

Kit Whitfield:

Well, there are many queer readings of it. There's a very good YouTube video by, I think, the YouTuber Kat Rowe, who talks about the queer history of the Green Knight story. It's in Middle English so you may need to get one with a parallel translation and it's also. It's a rather wonderful form of verse in which, rather than rhyming, for the most part the scheme is every line contains four stressed syllables, at least three of which alliterate. So it's lines like three of which alliterate. So it's lines like the greener canicht on the prune graderli him brasses, or the gormer on kringlet under him glide. And, like I said, I'm a bit of an etymology geek so I love this kind of thing which, like in the second of my two Guyford books you remember I mentioned, there's a pig that thinks it's the Gawain poet. I nicked the I'm going to talk in alliterative verse just because I thought that would just be really, really fun to play with and it really was.

Finbarre Snarey:

I admire that crystalline precision that you have with language there. Okay, well, the Knight Pentacles he's a steady, loyal, deeply committed chap, dedicated to the task at hand. He represents persistence and hard work, a methodical approach to building something lasting. And he's not like the flashier of a knight he doesn't rush, he plans, he prepares. He's like Sir Tortoise. Okay, knight of Pentacles, he's a mensch. How do you maintain steady progress in a long haul project?

Kit Whitfield:

How do you maintain steady progress in a long haul project? I think? Well, I would say a life lesson that I have to live by. I have a kid with special needs and you do not last in this life if you can't marathon instead of sprint, I think. I mean, I write folk fantasy and anybody who likes fantasy almost certainly likes the books of Terry Pratchett. There is a line in one of them, one of the Witches series, I think, which I kind of frequently remind myself of, which is the hard way is pretty hard, but not so hard as the easy way. I really agree with that. Do you know which book that's from? From Terry Pratchett? I think it's Lords and Ladies, which is in fact the one that talks about, where he talks about the myth of cold iron. I think it's Lords and Ladies. I know it's Granny Weatherwax who says it.

Finbarre Snarey:

So you mentioned your child. How have you managed to work around? You know challenges and low energy days and anything that life has had to bring up to bear against you when you try to write.

Kit Whitfield:

What I would say primarily I mean, apart from the fact that I mean when he was very little, I just didn't have time, which is why there is a big gap between my second and my third book hitting the market. What he has taught me is a sense of humor, not just I don't mean I just sit there and laugh at him, because that would be rotten of me, but he's a very funny person. He's a very playful, energetic, joyful kind of person and because he's autistic with ADHD, he has a different set of priorities to me. So in his toddlerhood was very important, you know, I would be continually discovering.

Kit Whitfield:

Apparently there's a rule that the toothpaste has to go on the left hand side of the sink, which is not a rule that I thought mattered, but in fact that turned into an inspiration, because when I started the guyford series, my inspiration for that was um, there's a tale about a church in the isle of man, I believe, which has no roof, and the story goes that they built it, they added a roof. Overnight, the fairies knocked the roof down. So the next day they built another roof. That night the fairies knocked it down again, and this went back and forth for some time until they took the point and now there only stands four walls and a field and an unfinished church Because, as the narrator, it was on a kid's program saying nobody knows why the fairies didn't want it to have a roof and I thought well, obviously I know why the fairies didn't want it to have a roof.

Kit Whitfield:

It's because the first time they saw it it had no roof. So as far as they were concerned, it shouldn't have a roof, because if it was going to have a roof it would have a roof, but it didn't have a roof, so it shouldn't have a roof. And I then started thinking you know what? I live in a home where there is more than one way of thinking about what's important, and if you live together as a loving family, you have to learn to see the funny side of each other. And so that in the end turns into an inspiration. Because I think it took.

Kit Whitfield:

I think my writing became more comical after my son was born, because sometimes you just have to acknowledge. You know what? Sometimes I think your rules are silly. Clearly, sometimes you think my rules are silly. The two of us banter a lot. I mean, you cannot persuade an all-DHD child to see things your way and you will make both of you unhappy if you try. You have to learn to accept that we have very different ways of looking at things and we're going to love each other as different people. I think that taught me a kind of playfulness and an amusedness, and I think my more recent books have a kind of amused mother tone to them.

Finbarre Snarey:

I like that idea of that that slight world weariness, just with an extra zest of glee. That sounds wonderful.

Kit Whitfield:

And an extra zest of you know what the world can be as silly as you want it to be. I mean, I hope my books don't read as completely silly, but certainly when you're coming up with ideas, the willingness to be silly is an absolutely vital creative element, because that's where creative energy comes from. So I think yeah, I think a big thing I learned from my son is a willingness to be silly and being unselfconscious, because he is not self-conscious, he is absolutely himself at all times and there's a tremendous joyfulness in that.

Finbarre Snarey:

And these are the moments where I regret having an audio podcast, because I can see that big beaming smile that you currently have right now.

Kit Whitfield:

Oh, I'm thinking about my son.

Finbarre Snarey:

Has your son shown any interest in possibly writing, or is this something that mum does?

Kit Whitfield:

He has a language disorder, so he certainly has an interest in, and he has a lot of. Do you know what echolalia is?

Finbarre Snarey:

I don't, but it's an amazing word in Scrabble. What's it mean?

Kit Whitfield:

Oh yeah, oh yeah, you could really win with echolalia, couldn't you? Oh yeah, oh yeah, you could really win with echolalia, couldn't you? Echolalia is the impulse to repeat exactly what you have heard for the satisfaction of saying it, or possibly the compulsion to say it, rather than because it conveys any meaning. If I say, please stop, that is driving me crazy. That doesn't work. The best I can do is say, could you repeat a different phrase now, please? Because for him it's a very strong drive. So you know he will write things for the satisfaction, but it's like CBeebies fan fiction. I would say he's a very good artist. He's a very good paper crafter. He makes little animations. I would also say he's a very creative quoter.

Kit Whitfield:

For a long time, because he was having difficulty learning language, he would use quotes to express himself because he didn't quite have the phrase himself. So, for example, a couple of favorites One time I was making him put his backpack on, which he didn't feel like doing, and when I insisted he quoted a TV show about pirates for kids and said I'll get you back for this swashbucklers. He didn't mean he was going to get me back, he was just like I'm not pleased with you right now mummy, I was like, okay, fair enough. But my absolute favorite was this show called Chuggington, which is a kind of like latter day Thomas the Tank Engine. It's about trains who are they're trainees, they're learning to do various roles.

Kit Whitfield:

He and I were walking down the street we ran into a neighbor. She and I had a friendly chat. He went shy, he didn't feel like talking to her. When we finished we walked down the street and I said to him that's a very nice lady, you know. I think maybe next time you meet her you might like to say hello to her, because she's a very nice lady. And my son, absolutely catching me at what I was trying to do, said in the exact Chuggington voice I'm fine, Stop fussing, I don't want to go to the repair shed. And I just thought, yeah, yeah, fair cop, I was trying to take you to the repair shed, I was trying to change something and you know what? I'm going to drop it because you've got me fair and square on that one, what he's able to do. But what I would say is that for him, language is his second language. His first language is visual or sensory, but he's always going to speak English as if he learned it as an adult, I think, but you can be very creative within that.

Finbarre Snarey:

It's clear to see where that spark of inventiveness comes from. One very quick last thing that I'm taking from the last card, the Knight of Pentacles there is. We're talking about the idea of going at a long project for an extended period of time. When do you find the time to write around your parenting responsibilities? Do you write into the middle of the night? Is it something you do here and there in a cafe, on the bus?

Kit Whitfield:

I do it when he's at school, basically, and I mean I also do freelance writing projects, just, you know, to make extra money under a pen name or under several pen names. I do it when he's at school. And I mean in terms of long-term writing projects, writing a novel is a long-term writing project in and of itself. It's a big feat of memory past a certain point. I think of it as like playing chess against yourself. In the beginning of it, you have to set up the pieces such that you can launch a good attack on the story and then finally you get to the end game where suddenly now you are playing against your former self and you're trying to beat the game that you've laid out.

Kit Whitfield:

I mean, some people are planners and some people are improvisers, and I am absolutely an improviser and this kind of means there's an endurance project in every day not going okay, I'm just an idiot, I do not know what I'm doing. Um, because if you are an improviser, the challenge is to sit down every day, knowing you don't know what you're doing, and do it until you finally figure it out yeah, that's uh.

Finbarre Snarey:

I'm just trying to think of what I would do in your shoes, and hats off to you. I can't imagine how it must be to maintain an entire world or the lore that's attached to that world, and then the characters that are attached to that world, and there is just another plane of existence.

Kit Whitfield:

How do you do it? Well, I mean the guy for books in particular, I would. It's not very dignified, but I would by now describe those characters as imaginary friends. You know, I and I think the thing is in an imaginary world you can. You can give yourself things that the world does not give you.

Kit Whitfield:

So, for example, I believe in writing happy endings. I, you know people can, partly because it's narratively fun to contrive, it's an interesting challenge. But also I just kind of feel you know what the world's hard enough. You know, when I was young and carefree I would read sad endings. But now I just feel you know what, there is a virtue in cheering people up, because if people have to go out into the world and fight for what's right, keeping your strength up with fiction, and the thing is also something that cheers you up does not have to be light and insubstantial, it can be.

Kit Whitfield:

And if people like reading I remember a friend calling a book that she read like cappuccino froth and she said this as a virtue. And if people like cappuccino froth and she said this like as a virtue, and you know people like cappuccino froth, great, you know, absolutely it. You know, if it sparks joy, enjoy it. But happy stories, they don't have to be less meaningful because they're not sad. I feel that there's a certain like determination not to give up. That goes with writing happy endings. Well, kit whitfield, I will raise a glass of champagne.

Finbarre Snarey:

Actually, it's just a mug of water, but I'll raise it anyway to happy endings. Well, kit Whitfield, I will raise a glass of champagne. Actually, it's just a mug of water, but I'll raise it anyway to happy endings and have to say thank you. A bottle of water to you. Thank you so much for joining us on Tarot Interviews today. Absolute pleasure.

Kit Whitfield:

Thank you for having me.

Finbarre Snarey:

That was Kit Whitfield in Tarot Interviews, bringing us into a world where fantasy doesn't escape reality but reframes it with clarity, compassion and just the right hint of strangeness. You can find her novels where books are sold, including Bareback in Great Waters and the Guyford series. Be sure to follow the link in the episode description for more of her work. And, as always, thank you for listening and join me, Fin, for the next episode.

People on this episode

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Fin

Host
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Nik

Producer
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Ada

Editor