Tarot Interviews

Monsters, Magic & Marvel: Carrie Harris Meets Her Cards

• Finbarre Snarey | Tarot Interviews • Season 1 • Episode 17

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Carrie Harris writes novels, comics, and games set in original worlds as well as for exciting licenses including Marvel, Warhammer 40k, Miraculous Ladybug, Arkham Horror, and the World of Darkness. She's also an editor, ghostwriter, and writing teacher, and she's passionate about mental health support for creatives. Her most recent book, THE FORBIDDEN VISIONS OF LUCIUS GALLOWAY (Aconyte Books, 2024) is a slowburn horror about a gay black academic in the 1920s which challenges traditional Lovecraft tropes.

Find out more at https://carrieharrisbooks.com

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Disclaimer: The Tarot Interviews podcast is intended for entertainment purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not constitute professional, legal, financial, medical, or psychological advice. Listeners are encouraged to seek guidance from qualified professionals where appropriate.

Finbarre Snarey:

Tarot Interviews.

Finbarre Snarey:

Welcome to Tarot Interviews. Today, my guest is Carrie Harris, American author who's been writing professionally since 2001,. So it's been quite the odyssey. Carrie has collaborated with major publishers and indie presses, producing work in universes such as Marvel and Warhammer 40K, where the imperium of mankind teeters on the brink of annihilation. Described as a geek of all trades, Carrie Harris once worked as an autopsy coordinator in a lab full of brains in jars. She is also the fiendish mastermind behind such titles as Bad Taste in Boys and the Elder God Dance Squad. Carrie Harris, welcome to Tarot Interviews. Tell me it is morning, it is breakfast time. What did you have?

Carrie Harris:

I had a raspberry muffin and a banana.

Finbarre Snarey:

I've got a craving for raspberry muffin. I mean, I'm currently looking after my children at the moment and it was just sad crumpets for us. But you know, as is the English way.

Carrie Harris:

I don't know. I like a good crumpet.

Finbarre Snarey:

A good crumpet's good. These ones had marmalade on, which may be some kind of crumpet heresy.

Carrie Harris:

Yeah, I'm not going to judge your choices.

Finbarre Snarey:

You are very, very kind. Okay, I have your cards in my hand. Okay, we'll reveal to the listeners that we have spoken before.

Carrie Harris:

We have had a test run at this, but there was a technological catastrophe, which means that we've had to meet again and pull some more cards oh, I was just gonna say I prefer to think of it as the universe wanted us to talk again because we had so much fun the first time, right?

Finbarre Snarey:

thank you so much. Right, well, you know what the drill is. Cards are here, off they go and tell me when to stop okay, are here. Off they go and tell me when to stop. Stop, okay, boom, okay. We're starting this episode off with a major Arcana card, and this one is the Devil.

Carrie Harris:

Real happy moment here.

Finbarre Snarey:

Oh, is it reminding you of I don't know college years, or?

Carrie Harris:

I think I have that on an album cover somewhere.

Finbarre Snarey:

Okay, what do you see in this card and what jumps out at you?

Carrie Harris:

When I look at the devil card, I'm drawn less to the devil and more to the people standing at his feet, and actually I was fumbling for words there. But I think the real thing is would you really want to be the person standing at the devil's feet? And my answer is no, I don't think I would.

Finbarre Snarey:

I was speaking to another person in a different interview. The person I was talking to, when they looked at the devil card, immediately drew parallels with the lover's card and how it is a more twisted, a more corrupted version of that card. If that's your interpretation, does it seem to you like a positive card? Negative card? What vibes do you get?

Carrie Harris:

To me it's a challenging card, um, you know it. It encourages you to face, and maybe face your personal demons, face your, your fears. You're the devil on your own shoulder. I think you know that's something that as a as a kid, I would have run from.

Finbarre Snarey:

But now that I've grown up, I don't think you can well, the um, the classic meanings of the devil are of, of the, should I say are of temptation, entrapment, illusion. It's all very dramatic, it all sounds very X-Men. The card exposes the hidden chains that bind us addictions, toxic relationships, limiting beliefs, material obsessions. So it's not about darkness or Lucifer, beelzebub or insert name. It's about awareness and it's how we surrender to our own power sometimes, and sometimes we convince ourselves that freedom's out of reach. So my question to you is what challenges have you faced in confronting societal taboos through your work?

Carrie Harris:

Ooh, that's an excellent one. So you know, as a writer, especially as somebody, mostly I write for licenses. These are properties that already fit. I've written for Marvel, I've written for Warhammer we were just talking about, I write for Miraculous, ladybug, Arkham Horror and so on and so forth. But the reality is that these are established worlds with established characters and they already have something that they are saying, and sometimes it's easy. I wrote for X-Men and that was one of my dream jobs, because what I love about the X-Men is what they say about society.

Carrie Harris:

But you also run into issues that what you want to say is not necessarily what the licensor wants to say, that there's this balancing act between the creator and the property. And then there's the question of you know, how much of yourself are you willing to put out there? And I think, more than anything, that's what the devil card represents to me is that fear of putting yourself out there, that fear of exposing yourself by addressing the things that mean the most to you. Especially depending on the climate that you're in, that becomes easier or harder For me addressing that devil. It's all about bravery and taking that leap of faith to say something that you really want to say about the world. Lucius Galloway is a gay man. That's my most recent book. There are some political and social issues that some people have and for me it was an act of bravery, maybe to put that on the page and just show these two people in love and let that be enough. And people can decide what they want to decide, but this is the reality.

Finbarre Snarey:

Absolutely. When I go to write poetry which I never publish, it never goes anywhere. It kind of it stays very close to my chest. When I put that out into the world, on the few occasions that I have, I feel like somebody's basically peering into my soul. I am utterly transparent. I'm a man made of glass, but as a writer that's produced as much as you have, there must be that sense of vulnerability, of people being able to kind of judge, you assess, you wonder where that particular storylines come from and speculate so much about your inner world and your life. I'm curious to know how do you ever feel the need to answer to that, or do you just let people make their own decisions and conclusions?

Carrie Harris:

I mean, I did when I was younger and I feel the same way that you do. I call it bleeding on the page. My best work has come when I bleed on the page. You know, as a young writer, I was very concerned with that, with what other people think Was I too vulnerable? Was I getting in the way of the work. But I don't think you can Well. I mean, yes, you can. It is possible to prioritize yourself over the story. You know what I want to say as opposed to what will make a good story. But otherwise, I think allowing yourself to feel things and to write about the things that you feel, regardless of what other people think of them, is where art comes from I'm thinking that two of the worlds that I know that you've written for are, at their core, designed to transgress societal norms.

Finbarre Snarey:

So I mean, say, for example, the x-men. They are a hot mess of dysfunction. There are so many stratas of stratas, strata let's go with strata of society that they could represent, whether they're're LGBTQ+, we're talking about people from different faiths, religions, cultures, you name it. It's the other, and writing within that environment must be so freeing, but you must have to rein yourself in a little sometimes. I can imagine.

Carrie Harris:

Yes, actually, my first X-Men book. I thought, oh, this is my chance. Yes, actually my first X-Men book. I thought, oh, this is my chance. And I wrote a scene that was you know, I talked to people, I got my sensitivity readers out and I really, really worked on this scene and I turned it in and they said this is great, but if you want to write this, we've got to run it up the chain. You have said some things, so there definitely is a balancing act between those two things and and you know you find that impeccable balance, I think, but sometimes it takes a few, uh, a few rounds of edits to get you there and I have to say, especially with the warhammer universe as well, because we have a warhammer world here in nottingham and I occasionally go down with the kids and they'll do that.

Finbarre Snarey:

Sorry, warhammer, I'm about to tell you something. My children will come and they'll paint the free little miniature that you offer and they'll have a great time. And then they'll walk around, look at the miniatures that you have on offer and then they will go back to the desk where you paint a free miniature in disguise. They'll often swap coats or put on a different voice or just try and have another go.

Finbarre Snarey:

No, but what I'm saying about warhammer is and you have this kind of this, this chaos, these dark entities, these beings that are supposed to be evil, but a lot of them dress like some of my friends from london and they seem extraordinarily queer. I am 100% rooting for those guys and not for the fascistic, you know, military roman empire in space that worships a I think it's. It's a dead emperor. I don't know, there's probably spoilers in there, but um, you, you have to pick a side with that one. That was the first time that I'd seen people dress up like circus performers and, you know, it catapulted me off into such wonderful worlds and all of that was stuff that I felt as a 14, 15, 16 year old that maybe I shouldn't be looking at, but I'm very glad I did yeah, I mean I think you know the thing about warhammer and really the thing about a lot of these properties is they give you a safe place to explore those questions.

Carrie Harris:

I remember maybe this is off topic and if it is you can cut it out but I remember as a kid my next door neighbor was a huge um star trek fan and he was also a raging racist. And I was young, I didn't know like I, I didn't understand what was going on, I just knew the words that he was saying were bad I'm pulling faces at the camera right now because I cannot square that circle.

Finbarre Snarey:

I can't square Star Trek fan with racist, sorry, continue.

Carrie Harris:

Exactly, and it wasn't until I was older where I realized those two things do not jive. But he used to talk and talk and talk about how he wished the world was like the Federation. It's stuck with me ever since that that's a way in the way to talk to people about those things that are maybe a little bit too close in the real world. But maybe if that guy loved star trek, maybe he was a racist until his dying day, or maybe at some point he realized that star trek was the better choice, big reason I do what I do I miss that optimism of what the future can be like, and that hasn't gone away in star trek.

Finbarre Snarey:

It's still there at its very core, and that's why I love the, especially, you know, the strange new worlds episodes and the kind, even the new ones that are coming out now. I adore them because they've managed to hang on to that spark.

Carrie Harris:

Yeah, yeah, and I think you know it's really funny to be talking about Star Trek and Warhammer kind of in the same conversation, because in some ways they're. You know, here's the idealized version and, yes, star Trek has this moment but slightly more idealized vision of what the future could be, versus here's what happens when a lot of things go wrong.

Finbarre Snarey:

Absolutely, but, but I think you need both yeah, you know, when times have been good in my life, I've liked a bit of dystopia and I flirted with the kind of the zombie genre and I've, you know, watched Train to Busan and gone, oh, isn't this great? And then when you're sat on a train that breaks down, you think, is this the zombies? The zombie genre for me is something that was something that was safely enjoyed when it felt like the world was better. And now my go-to is optimistic sci-fi. If it's got a musical episode, all the better.

Carrie Harris:

Yeah, Hope Punk has its draws and I definitely find myself gravitating toward that sort of thing, but I also there's a certain amount of prepper in me that loves the idea of a zombie book, because it's a safe, easy way to think about what you would do if the world went kaput. What would you do?

Finbarre Snarey:

and it's way easier to think about when there are zombies involved I'm one of those people where, as soon as you mention preparation plans, I've got my hand. Okay, me, me, me. I've got an idea. The one that makes people kind of raise an eyebrow a little is I quite like the idea of having a zombie chariot. Okay, bear with me. So what you do is get yourself a cherry picker, yeah, and you raise it, you basically, off the front of the cherry picker, you have, I don't know, maybe a big succulent ham or whatever food you can scavenge, basically, and we'll sew up a load of zombies. That's probably easier said than done. Rodeo style. Attach them to the front of the cherry picker and off you go. You can just trundle through the wasteland on your cherry picker like the equivalent of Boudicca in style. There you go.

Carrie Harris:

You know, what's funny is my son for a while drove some of those heavy machinery for a job and we have had the exact same conversation, but without the ham.

Finbarre Snarey:

I mean, I'm not sure if a vegan alternative would work, but okay, give it a go.

Carrie Harris:

I think we assumed that we would be the ham.

Finbarre Snarey:

Ah, yeah, yeah.

Carrie Harris:

Depending on how sensitive they are smell-wise, you may or may not need your hand.

Finbarre Snarey:

Cut it before things get too silly. Okay, all right, let me give those a little shuffle.

Carrie Harris:

Stop.

Finbarre Snarey:

The artwork on this particular piece of the Seven of Cups.

Carrie Harris:

I always get cups. Always had to double check it was the Seven of Cups. I always get cups.

Finbarre Snarey:

Always had to double check. It was the Seven of Cups. Indeed, it is On a playlist I put together recently of the Major Arcana and the Minor Arcana on Spotify, which you should be able to find if you type in tarotinterviewscom forward slash cups, it'll take you straight to that playlist, and this particular song, for me, reminds me of losing the sky with diamonds, and that's the one that I've attributed to this card. That's the vibe that I get when you see this. What jumps out at you? What strange objects floating in the sky. Do you see? How does the card feel?

Carrie Harris:

yeah, and now that you've said that, I'm not sure I'm ever going to see it differently, but the thing that jumps out at me is the contents of the cups. There's so many different things in those various cups. There's a head, there's a laurel wreath, there's a floating red thing. I don't know. I'm blind. I can't see what that is. Do?

Finbarre Snarey:

you know what? I'm not entirely sure, I would consider that to be a magical shroud, but it could be anything. I'm willing to go with that. Oh, it could be Inky, binky or Clyde from Pac-Man.

Carrie Harris:

Well, you know, I am inspired by video games, so it could be.

Finbarre Snarey:

Sorry, I'm derailing you. What else do you see?

Carrie Harris:

Yeah, so I mean. And the other question is what's this person who's standing there looking up at this cloud full of cups, is he? I'm not entirely sure what that posture is. Is it reaching for them? Is it pushing them away? I don't really know what that is.

Finbarre Snarey:

Now, this is why I love hearing people's interpretations, because that's a detail I've never noticed and now that will stay with me. So every time I see this card, I'll be wondering what the intention of that person is. I'd always consider it to almost be like a kind of Harry Houdini style showman who is gesturing to this magnificent display. But you're right, it could be somebody who is haunted like something from Edgar Allan Poe and has seen this thing so many times that it's starting to drive them insane. Hmm, I've not said that. Seven of Cups, the card of illusions, dreams, fantastical or dangerous possibilities. It's a card of wonderment, as I say, that kind of that Houdini performance style magnificence to it. Temptation, temptation. We had the devil before, didn't't we wishful thinking as well? There may be paths ahead. Some of them are probably not particularly wise, and the seven of cups challenges you to sort truth from illusion, move from dreaming to being discerning. So the challenge is clarity. Okay. So question Kerry Harris, how do you navigate the multitude of ideas that you must have on any given day?

Carrie Harris:

I think there's a real balance between you know, you've got the creative mind that has the 70 million ideas and everyone is new and sparkly and it feels so good and you're so excited about it. And then there's also the fact that you know this is my job, this is my full-time job. I make things up for a living, which is really crazy when you think about it. I think you know, in the past I've I've gone really far into the letting the creative mind take the reins and write whatever I want, and the market be damned and it will find a home where it won't and sometimes it did and sometimes it did not. And that I've also tried, you know, because I've been doing this for 20 some years. You know I've also tried just writing to the market. What do people want? I'm going to give it to them, and I think there's an impeccable balance between the two.

Carrie Harris:

I do this because I love it. So if I only write to the market, yes, I'd make money, but I'm not making my health happy, I'm not saying the things that I want to say and arguably I'm not making art. I'm making a product. I'm inserting tab a into slot b because that's what they're telling you to do, and so, again, I think we're kind of going back to that fear, or or need to put some of yourself into the work in order to make something that's meaningful, and so that's what this card is about to me is the struggle between balancing those two things.

Carrie Harris:

And if you want to do this, you do need to be aware of the market. You know any creative endeavor. You need to be aware of what people are buying, but you also can't stand to lose touch with the thing that made you love it in the first place.

Finbarre Snarey:

I imagine as well, there's a balance to be struck when, say, for example, you're wildly inspired by this wonderful idea that you have and you're scribbling away on bits of paper as the ideas come to you and you're caught in that creative process. I imagine there's a need to balance that with doing things outside of that that you would draw ideas from, and I imagine there's a need to balance that with doing things outside of that that you would draw ideas from. And I imagine when you're so buried into a project, you're kind of missing some of the inspiration, some of those little kind of those motes of wonderfulness that you would get from a gallery, going through a park, meeting up with old friends or even looking through old diaries. Those inspirations are somehow missed. So how do you balance up those two?

Carrie Harris:

Yeah, you're absolutely right, and one of the things that I've been doing in the past few years is actually building time into my schedule to refill the well. So there are times when I deliberately do not draft, I'm not writing anything, and I will do that just so I can cram as much things as possible into my brain hole. I watch, I watch shows, I go places, I see things, I enjoy art, I spend time outside and talk to actual, real people. You know I read and read and read and read and catch up on as much as I can, and then I'm refreshed and ready to go back.

Finbarre Snarey:

Excellent. I need to go off on a tangent, because I did read that once upon a time you mentioned brain hole, and that word brain had me thinking oh yes, that was that thing I was going to ask you Is it true that once upon a time you would have been working in a lab surrounded by brains in jars? And please say it is Excellent?

Carrie Harris:

Yeah, you know, out of college I always wanted to be a writer, but they told me to get a real job and I didn't know anyone who was a writer. It seemed like a unicorn kind of job that didn't exist. So I got real jobs and one of them was I managed the National Center for Research in the Human Form of Mad Cow Disease, and so I watched aha feeds and there were brains in jars and they delivered brains to me via FedEx and sometimes they would misdeliver them, so you would go down the hall looking for your missing brains and I've made every joke it is possible to make about that.

Finbarre Snarey:

Are they in jars with bubbles and is there like a, I don't know, like a plaque on the bottom or anything like that at all.

Carrie Harris:

I wish there's like plastic containers with stickers on them, so slightly less enjoy and it's like exciting, but still I thought it was really cool.

Finbarre Snarey:

Okay, Card three. Here we go. Stop, we have the Wheel of Fortune. Now it's quite a weird looking card. I mean many of the Rider-Waite-Smith cards are. They're so artistically dense, rich and wonderful. This one's just straight up peculiar. What can you see here?

Carrie Harris:

Well, there's a strange compass, sextant something, but I don't know what the directions are. All the creatures around it. Some of them are fantasy creatures. We've got the serpent. We've got the devil-y looking guy At the bottom, a pegasus maybe. Or there's a bird. I'm not entirely sure if any of those creatures are real or if they're all fantasies.

Finbarre Snarey:

They're maybe a sphinx yeah, I I think um pamela coleman smith. Old pixie really likes sphinxes. Either that or it was the guy who's paying her.

Carrie Harris:

I'm not entirely sure which well, and then you've got the serpent. But you could say that's a real world serpent, or is it, you know, in tandem with the devil? Maybe it's a reference to the, you know, the, the serpent in the garden of eden, and all that stuff, and it's a magic serpent.

Finbarre Snarey:

I don't know okay, I mean we had the devil card and then we had a kind of illusion and temptations and, yeah, still got that snake there. That's very interesting, okay, this particular card it spins with mystery, fate. Momentum represents ups and downs and twists of destiny and moments beyond our control. And when the card turns up, it's saying that something's shifting, luck is changing, returning that life is at that turning point and it tells us that nothing stays still for long. So, okay, trust in the process, even though it feels chaotic. That's what the card is saying. My question is how do you perceive the role of chance and choice in shaping your creative journey?

Carrie Harris:

I mean early on, there's a certain you know you're just desperate to get in. You're just desperate to meet the person who will read or listen or give you a chance, or give you a chance. I think. At some point I think you feel obligated to say yes to anything you can get Because you're desperate.

Carrie Harris:

This is what you know you are meant to do, this is what you really have wanted all of your life. So you say yes to anything you can do and I think you've got to a point where you have to start like you can do that your entire career and probably be quite successful at it. But will you be happy? And I think that's where the choice comes in is to say what do I want to do? What is my heart drawing me to, or your muse or your, whatever you want to call it. You know that ultimately you are in this career whatever creative career it is because you have something you want to say. You have a picture of the world that you want to share. You have questions or pain or happiness or whatever it is that is uniquely yours and that other people are going to to see and feel and respond to.

Finbarre Snarey:

And if you don't choose, that's never going to come out have you ever done anything like a short story or something longer, a, a novel maybe, where you felt not only drawn to do it but fated to do it, or destined, should I say, depending on how good it is?

Carrie Harris:

I have two, so one of them is out. Witch is Unleashed, which is a ghostwriter novel, and it doesn't seem like the sort of thing that would be particularly Like. It's a guy who turns into a skeleton and rides a motorcycle. This is not emotional, but the book is about found family, the whole thing. It's about family trauma. Every single character in that book, they all come from Marvel and I deliberately pick every single one of them because they have family trauma. Every single one of them. Because they have family trauma. They come together and they each get something they need out of the bond that they create. It's all about coming to terms with those things that happened in your past that you cannot change because you have messed up.

Finbarre Snarey:

I'm one of these people who, when I've been asked you know who's your favorite Marvel character or which stories do you like or which comics have you read, I thought I was reasonably knowledgeable because, yeah, I help my kids play the Lego Marvel game and I thought I had a grip on some of the characters based on nothing. And I realized there are so many characters I know nothing about. It is, the world is immense, so could you tell me which characters appear in Witches Unleashed?

Finbarre Snarey:

well, there's ghost rider obviously was he played by nicholas cage in the film release yep, yeah, yep, same one um, and, but he it's later, he's.

Carrie Harris:

He's lost his wife, he's lost his children, he's dealing with that. And then there are three characters that were from um, a short-lived comic called the Witches. And it's Satana who is a succubus. Her dad is the devil going back to the devil. Yeah, she has some feelings about that. Topaz is a powerful witch. She was kidnapped. She doesn't know who her family is, and Jennifer is well. She killed her brother because he was evil. She had kidnapped. She doesn't know who her family is, and Jennifer is well. She killed her brother because he was evil. She had to.

Finbarre Snarey:

I mean, I'm sure that anyone that is lucky enough to have a brother would probably think they're evil at some point. Okay, no.

Carrie Harris:

So the Kale family, they are the keepers of this magic book and the book possessed him and it was very dramatic, but she's dealing with. You know, this is what I did, and now how do I go on? So there's that one, and then I'm working on one now as a fill-in. That is my book. It's called Supermom is Not Okay, and she is my book. It's called Supermom Is Not Okay, and she is a superhero and she has hit rock bottom. And what do you do when you're a superhero and you don't want to live anymore but you can't die?

Finbarre Snarey:

Are her kids superpowered as well?

Carrie Harris:

Nope, which makes it worse, doesn't it? I mean?

Finbarre Snarey:

Does she have any job or role outside of Homemaker, or is this her world?

Carrie Harris:

Yep. This is all she has.

Finbarre Snarey:

Okay, could I ask what powers she has?

Carrie Harris:

Well, she's kind of a generic superhero. She's super strong, she's super fast, she can fly. Yes, she fights things. That's what she does.

Finbarre Snarey:

She saves people who jump off buildings and then thinks about how much of a privilege it would be to be able to jump At. What stage are you up to with that story? Is it now finished?

Carrie Harris:

I have scribbled with it, but this is my fill in from the heart. So, in between paying jobs, I noodle with this. We'll see. Maybe it'll never come out, I don't know, but it's the sort of thing that I feel I'd love to do more of it.

Finbarre Snarey:

Is there anyone in particular that you picture as the main character in this story? Would it be yourself, members of your family, people that you've met previously, or is she just somebody completely new? That's kind of risen unbidden and needed to have her story told.

Carrie Harris:

Yeah, you know, I really don't picture other people because I have to do really awful things to my characters and I feel guilty. So the only real people that I ever put in my stories are teachers that I had in high school, because they just show up and they give you homework and then they leave, which is pretty accurate. So if I need a teacher, I will often name it after somebody that I actually had. Those are really the only real people. I did steal a friend's shirt and his hair for a character who is really cool, because it was the coolest person I could think of, so I made him look like that guy.

Carrie Harris:

Yeah, that's it I feel sorry for these poor teachers who are literally thrown to zombies or werewolves or whatever fates you gave them well, generally speaking, if, if I'm gonna do something awful to them, I make up a teacher, but yes, otherwise they're just mean and they get more.

Finbarre Snarey:

Right? Well, looking at the clock, we're almost out of time, so I need to ask what are you doing with the rest of today?

Carrie Harris:

I'm going to run some errands. I might work on some writing, but we're going to see. I just turned a bunch of stuff in yesterday, so maybe today should be filling the well, absolutely, find something to read or watch and take a breath.

Finbarre Snarey:

I love the sound of that. I think for me that's going to be in a hammock stretched between two trees. Carrie Harris, thank you so much for appearing on Tarot Interviews. Again it's been an absolute pleasure, as always.

Carrie Harris:

Well, thank you for having me. If this recording goes sideways, I'd love to come back again.

Finbarre Snarey:

And that wraps up our conversation with the brilliant Carrie Harris. Be sure to check out Carrie's website: carrieharrisbooks. com and if you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to follow us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or Audible or wherever you listen to us, so you never miss an episode. Until next time, keep creating and sharing your stories. Thanks for tuning in and we'll see you in the next episode. Until next time, keep creating and sharing your stories. Thanks for tuning in and we'll see you in the next episode.

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